Tendance Coatesy

Left Socialist Blog

Peter Tatchell: A Human Rights Defence.

with 29 comments

The Results of Standing up for Human Rights.

Islamaphobia – the attempt to define criticism of Islam in any form as racialism and  beyond the Pale –  has taken a new toll. A virulent discussion has taken place on the Socialist Unity site. Around charges that Peter Tatchell is ‘Islamphobic’. That his campaigning for human rights is barely disguised Western cultural imperialism. That Peter has used gay issues to attack Muslims. That he is therefore, objectively, (and subjectively) an ally of the far-right. Barry Kade (Green left) has added fuel to the fire by a confused partial defence of this disgraceful pack of lies (here). He even added his own claims. That Islamophobia is hidden behind atttacking Islam on rationalist grounds,  “this racism is veiled in the language of enlightenment liberalism and secularism.”

Really….

There are plenty of causalities in this battle. Beginning with Kade’s ability to disscuss politics without clichés. Andy Newman appears to have stepped into deeper waters than he bargained for. Derek Wall of the Green Party’s left,  published a reasonable defence of Tatchell’s record as a human rights campaigner. That this charge is “a lie plain and simple”. We have teased Derek in the past (and not doubt will in the future) but this was heartfelt. For reasons best known to himself Andy Newman saw fit to add a much more mixed analysis (here). This had some well-expressed comments that make it clear that Tatchell was not an ally of the far-right. But melded them with much pontificating around the subject, he failed to resolve the issue. Letting the smear’s traces there. To the annoyance of some Greens. They see this, not unreasonably, as an effort to stir up animosity between  the Green Party and liberal Islamist Salma Yaqoob. She after all refuses to reject the Sharia – how could she, she is a believer! It would be like a Marxist criticising Marx (opps – we do).  Instead Yaqoob and her apologists, talk of Islam’s ‘respect’ for human beings (not, all varieties and forms of the religion  taken account of, often  in evidence for Gays). Andy Newman caps this by  citing the obscure post-Colonial cultural studies academics and paper activists who began the latest hunt-the-Tatchell,

Rather than help, politics such as Tatchell’s have worsened the situation for the majority of queer Muslims. It has become increasingly difficult for groups such as the Safra Project, who are forced into the frontline of the artificially constructed gay v. Muslim divide, to contest sexual oppression in Muslim communities. The more homophobia is constructed as belonging to Islam, the more anti-homophobic talk will be viewed as a white, even racist, phenomenon, and the harder it will be to increase tolerance and understanding among straight Muslims. The dialogue which Safra and other queer Muslim groups have long sought over this is more often than not ignored or disregarded, and white gay activists such as Tatchell have proved indifferent to the fact that the mud which they sling onto Muslim communities lands on queer Muslims themselves.

Peter has answered such charges many times. He states that “We should fight the real oppressors and not pick fights with, and publish false allegations against, other progressive people. Sectarian attacks undermine the struggle for human rights, social justice, peace and anti-imperialism.” (here) It follows that if homophobia (and say, the oppression of women) is something Muslim institutions and organisations practice (which is obviously the case) then we have to fight the institutions and organisations that promote this. If these academics (whose dismissal of ‘white gay activists’ says more about their ‘anti-racism’ than anything else) want a ‘dialogue’ with the Safra Project then so be it. But what is their attitude to States, Islamist parties and religious bodies which do actively promote anti-gay anti-human rights policies? Dialogue with oppressors?

Let’s be clear on this. Peter Tatchell stands on the side of universal human rights. Some cack-handed Leninists and post-modern relativists, may consider this as disguise for Western claims for European and US cultural norms to be better than any others. However, human rights, in the way Peter grasps them, are part of a fight for a better world. They are not fixed, but the result of people actively to defend them. We could add that the UN Declaration of Human Rights was itself the product of a sincere desire to draw together many different conceptions. Far from being exclusively  ‘Western’ – they tried to include a planetary spectrum of views (Mary Ann Glendon, A World Made New: Eleanor Roosevelt and the Creation of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights ( 2000). It was explicitly anti-colonialist. For all its faults (and there are many, starting with its neglect of material rights), it remains something that can be carried forward and developed. Not retreated from because some Muslims ((excused by attendant Islamophiles) think it represents an attack on their divine right to declare their own religious rights more important than anyone else’s.

Andy Newman now states, that (here),

At no time did any one ever accuse Derek Wall of being Islamophobic.
At no time did any one ever accuse Green Left of being Islamophobic
At no time did any one ever accuse the Green Party of being Islamophobic

The term Islamophobia has poisoned the whole discussion. Rather like the question ‘when did you stop beating your wife’, it is almost impossible to deny without some dirt rubbing off. I have good reason to dislike the word – as one of the first British leftists to be charged with it publicly on Islamophobia Watch. Someone very hostile to Islam full stop, Christopher Caldwell, in Reflections on the Revolutions in Europe (2009) has claimed that it’s a sign that any criticism of Islam is deemed unacceptable. This appears borne out by the ‘debate’ around Peter Tatchell.

What a mess.

Written by Andrew Coates

November 11, 2009 at 10:58 am

29 Responses

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  1. What makes me laugh about all these ‘anti-imperialist’ movements, is that they are generally pro-capitalist.

    Sue R

    November 11, 2009 at 11:41 am

  2. On what basis do you define Islamophobia as involving the description of anybody who criticises Islam as a racist?

    On what basis do call Salma Yakoob an “Islamist” (of any kind).

    Why can’t you respond rationally to a single thing said by anyone who disagrees with you on this subject?

    johng

    November 11, 2009 at 12:31 pm

  3. @ Sue R: they are not only pro-capitalist, they are generally not opposed to e.g. French, Saudi-Arabian, German or Russian imperialism

    entdinglichung

    November 11, 2009 at 1:26 pm

  4. You will enjoy an article I am working on, arguing that Ibn Khaldun was the real father of the enlightenment, and that while the age of reason began in the 18th century in Europe, the true enlightenment was in the Muslim world, some four hundred years earlier.

    i will also take up Ernst gellner’s argument that Islam is a fundamentally modernist religion, in contrast to Christianity.

    andy newman

    November 11, 2009 at 1:36 pm

  5. I don’t have a dog in this fight, so I’ll just ask a genuinely innocent question: how do you define “Islamism”? I presume that it is possible to be a Muslim politician, even an observant one, without necessarily being an Islamist.

    I’m intrigued by the project Andy has announced – this article seems to argue the precise opposite:
    http://www.variant.org.uk/15texts/after911.html

    Francis King

    November 11, 2009 at 1:58 pm

  6. Andrew,

    You’re right to point out how accusations of “Islamophobia”, or more correctly the perception of that, sours otherwise legitimate and helpful debates.

    But in all fairness, I don’t think Andy Newman was motivated by malice or anything like that, I think possibly he felt it was a good topic to air.

    However, the law of unintended consequences soon kicked in here, SWPers were doing their damnedest to suggest that “but he marched with the BNP in 2006”, which is utterly ridiculous but the ultraleftists on SU blog felt that any offensive comments was legitimate and in the process ruined any meaningful discussion.

    If Andy Newman can be criticised it is for not remembering the old adage “when you’re in a hole stop digging “, and he did apologise, which is rare as hen’s teeth on the Left, but all in all the result has been to spread rancour and division amongst socialists, Greens and others.

    Sadly, I don’t think many people will actually understand how the shouting and finger-pointing school of debate actually splits the Left rather than helps it.

    I should add I think there is a problem with anti-Muslim bigotry, but false claims such as those aimed at Peter Tatchell don’t help matters much either.

    modernityblog

    November 11, 2009 at 2:27 pm

  7. Good stuff Andrew, totally agree.

    The word Islamophobic should be banned from political discourse as it implies fear or dislike of a belief system, which may be right or wrong depending on the progressive or reactionary nature of the belief system. The phrase “anti-Muslim bigotry” is far more sensible as it applies to hatred against individuals.

    If people want to go around ranting about Islamophobes and slurring people and web sites willy nilly they deserve what they get.

    MoreMediaNonsense

    November 11, 2009 at 2:39 pm

  8. That is an interesting article Francis, thanks for pointing it out to me.

    I was pulling Coatsie’s tail a bit, so put my point in a bit too cheeky a way.

    That article is not entirely wrong, but my point is not that Ibn Khaldun was at the beginning of an enlightenent tradition that was leter sustained, but that ideas that we would certainly recognise as being similar to those of the European enlightenement were common in Islamic society centruries earlier.

    The article you quote interestingly stresses how the themes of authority or reason were contested in 14th Cenutry Islamic society, in exactly the way there were in the European enlightenment. For a number of complex social reasons, authority won, but that victory was a contingent one, and recognising this means that we can see Islam not as an essentially anti-rational religion, but also as the foundation for an importnat school of rationalist philosophy,

    Ibn Khaldun is an important rationalist thinker, comparable to Voltaire or John Hume. Certainly he is still regarded as a very important philosopher in the Muslim world. he lays the fondation for arguing that some of the laws of the Quran refect the social milieau they were created in, rather than literally being the closed word of God.

    the modernity of Islam is in its decentralised and non-heirarcical nature, and also the social function it has served, similar to modern nationalism, or providing an imagined wider community, and a set of normative laws that allow impersonalised transactions.

    the duality in Islam (both variants) is that there exist both an urban high religion, and particulorlised folk variants, saint myths, etc; which also makes it inherently open to interpreation and reinterpreation to reflect differeing social environment, and also allowing religiously underpinned folk traditions, like veil wearing, to be challenged, in the name of Islam itself

    andy newman

    November 11, 2009 at 2:42 pm

  9. Andy you characterised my comments on SU and the debate we were having as :

    “There has also been sustained and disruptive trolling from contributors to the Zionist Harry’s Place, trying to make mischief and sow division. Their agenda is to attempt to delegitimise any opposition to Islamophobia.”

    You really can’t help it can you ? Still the same old dishonest smears. I (and others) were just giving it to you straight about the errors in your absurd article about Peter Tatchell and how your name calling had caught you out and you couldn’t take it. Now you stop the debate and come out with the same old garbage. Pathetic.

    MoreMediaNonsense

    November 11, 2009 at 3:25 pm

  10. “…allowing religiously underpinned folk traditions, like veil wearing, to be challenged, in the name of Islam itself.” And that, I freely admit, is the secularist’s dilemma. Although I have no problem in principle with criticising, or even denouncing, the fundamental postulates and some of the cultural practices of and within Islam, I am acutely aware that to do so in the wrong place or in the wrong way merely provides succour to the reactionaries and undermines the reformers within the community. Tricky.

    Francis King

    November 11, 2009 at 3:32 pm

  11. I’ve been waiting in vain for some Marxism to break out in this thread – you know, class analysis? When terms like enlightenment and universal human rights are banded about I remember where the main showdowns of 20th century imperialist slaughter started and took place. And then I remember slvaery and colonialism. It’s a pity the recent quote from Lenin on this blog wasn’t actually absorbed. Some people have been spending too long in the company of French Leftists in thrall to the tradition of republican anti-clericaliam.

    Doug

    November 11, 2009 at 4:40 pm

  12. there were always thinkers before the late 17th century who developed ideas (from various backgrounds, Epikuros, Anaxagoras, Uriel da Costa, Zhuang Zhe, the Muʿtazilah, etc.) which can be considered as predecessors of the englightment … what they all have in common is, that they were marginal in their contemporary society and not able to develop much influence

    entdinglichung

    November 11, 2009 at 4:50 pm

  13. Despite the fact that I think you are typically very rude and arrogant in debates I completely agree 100% with your analysis.

    Socialist

    November 11, 2009 at 9:40 pm

  14. Coatesy is fairly polite, if you ask me, but I think the wider problem is that the age of reason and whole chunks of the enlightenment are still in doubt in much of the West, let alone anywhere else.

    By that I mean that rational discourse is at a minimum and many in the West believe any old nonsense, from UFOs to New Age belief and beyond, many that have received a fine university education, so it could be seen as a bit much criticising others when there’s still a lot to be done elsewhere, just a thought 🙂

    modernityblog

    November 11, 2009 at 10:00 pm

  15. “what they all have in common is, that they were marginal in their contemporary society and not able to develop much influence”

    Well that would set Ibn Khaldun massively apart from them then, as he had huge influence, we find his infleunce for example in Frederick Engels’s writings on Islam in Die Neue Zeit, in 1894, and he was very influential on Soviet anthropologists like A M Khazanov and G E Markov.

    andy newman

    November 12, 2009 at 12:29 am

  16. “how your name calling had caught you out and you couldn’t take it.”

    I never called anyone names.

    I made an apology because people were offended, and I valued their friendship more than I wanted to continue the argument.

    andy newman

    November 12, 2009 at 12:31 am

  17. I’ve followed this Tatchell thread around for a few days now and it seems to have generated more heat than light (and not a little animosity) which in many ways goes to show how utterly fucked up the Left is in this country. Now let me put my foot in it.

    I have nothing but admiration and respect for Tatchell’s stout and very brave defence of human rights. I also have no doubt in my mind that if the human rights of the Muslim community were being attacked he would be among the first at the barricades. So this notion that he’s some kind of ‘Islamophobe’ is total and utter bollocks. Period.

    The problem as I see it is that large parts of what remains of the Left are still wedded to this 20th century notion of ‘anti-imperialism’. This had more relevance 100 years ago when the Great Powers walked the Earth like giants, crushing whole nations that stood in their way. But this way of thinking does nothing to clarify issues in 2009. Far, far too many people now blame Western liberal values per se for causing conflict and rupture in the world and believe that any expression, or promotion, of those values, eg equality for homosexuals, is simply another manifestation of an ‘imperialist’ Western agenda.

    Add to this an unhealthy dose of post-modernism and cultural relativism and you have a nasty brew which can end with people, normally enlightened and humane, making excuses for all kinds of reactionary crap, often on the basis that it’s ‘not appropriate’ for non-western cultures.

    I don’t have an answer to this issue but it’s clearly evident that chucking around terms like ‘Islamophobia’ and ‘cultural imperialism’ does no favours to those who wish to make a principled stand in defence of universal humanity.

    @modernity 10.00pm. You’ve touched on something I pretty much agree with. Maybe a future topic of conversation- what does ‘enlightenment and ‘reason’ mean in 2009? It is after all the political Left that was the standard bearer of 1789. Just a thought…

    I await gentlemen with big guns and bigger degrees to shoot me down for my pig ignorance…

    Weston Bay

    November 12, 2009 at 12:40 am

  18. There’s an old American saying, ‘If you’re so smart, how come you ain’t rich?’. I think we could apply that to the Muslim world, ‘if you’re so enlightened, how come you ain’t able to feed yourself, have massive unemployment, lack modern housing, persecute non-believers and members of other Muslim congregations, kill people who offend against morality etc etc. Obviously, it is not genetic, but social. It don’t mean fuck that a Muslim sage invented rational argument (or rather probably rediscovered the Greeks) a few hundred years ago, what matters is what use was made of his ideas by the ruling class. From what I can see is, none whatsoever. At least in Western Europe, the mercantile class was savvy enough to realise it was in their interest to be dynamic. Marx and Engles regarded the Islamic world as uncivilised, they thought it was only with the advent of industrial society that humans were able to rise above their tribal and clan affiliations. They didn’t think that because they were racists, but because they had a material, class analysis. Incidentally, if the article on the Muslim Englightenment is anything like the drivel I read on Socialist Unity about Creationism, it won’t be worth reading but it will score Andy Newman points with his Palestinian mates.

    Sue R

    November 12, 2009 at 10:57 am

  19. Despite what Doug says there is an important debate about Islam and the Enlightenment (Lenin: No revolution without Revolutionary Theory).

    Firstly, the issue of the Enlightenment. Everyonewho cares to go into this is aware it’s pretty complex in itself (conservative strands, Voltaire, Hume, radical ones – Dideroit Condorcet, Paine). So Islam (all complexities etc) there is surely something there challenging received ideas, for the right to be critical, against oppressions, to be found,. Obviously. But as Enty says, those questioning authority, or even launching ideas beyond a narrow spectrum, (Averros) soon ran up against authority (Averros was condemned for his writings). This, as Andy Newman shows (I am not familiar with Ibn Khaldun btw) happend later. The Enlightnement can happen anywhere, no doubt there are others we can rope into it. But there are problems about the philosophical cultures around Islam and which form the politics involved which remain. There is a literature by, say the Iranian-Iraqian Work-Communist parties, which shows some directions.

    Firstly, according to the stuff I’ve read mainstream Islam has remained dominated by Aristotlean categories in a way Europe only knows in Catholicism (Aquinas). This fits in with the doctrine of signs (ayat) said to be at the centre of the Qu’ran (categories being read through signs of God). This is a closure, as is the judicial tradition in Islam, around the text and God.

    Secondly, settling debates by political-religious authority punctures Islamic history, from Averros ownards (I am not familiar with Ibn Khaldun). Gellner’s argument about Islam Andy is that folk religion is being replaced by modernist forms of universal faith which rely on these mechanisms btw, not on decentralisation. More recent stuff elsewhere on this theme stresses globalisation as a horizotnal means of spreading religious power, not abolishing it.

    Thirdly, for the left the point is : undermining political-religious authority means supporting secularism. I define Islamism as a spectrum of political movements that attempt to make verisions of the Qu’ran the fundamental structural guide to social and political existence. Salma Yaqoob is a liberal Islamist, who wants this introduced by consent (though god’s law is ultimately beyond human will). Most of the other forms are, well, not so liberal…

    By contrast to Islamism and any form of religous politics we should see that human rights are human creations that have to be fought for, laid out, and defended. Socialists can help shape them too. That is what I think Peter is trying to do. He deserves support.

    Andrew Coates

    November 12, 2009 at 11:13 am

  20. Sue R,

    Can I ask your question ?

    Did you make such sweeping statements when you were young member of the IMG and an antiracist?

    I have had the misfortune to read your comments for over two years, and frankly they are borderline Daily Mail, and if I hadn’t had the pleasure of knowing so many Lefties, who eventually went downhill (Peter Hitchens is an example, but you could pick Kate Hoey as well, a one-time IMGer, etc), I wouldn’t have bothered.

    But Sue R, you should know better, in a few sentences you have tried to indict about 1.8 Billion people.

    If that wasn’t your intention, then might I suggest that you use your not inconsiderable education and one-time Marxist training to avoid sweeping generalisations because they make you sound like a bigot.

    Now you’ll probably think that is terribly harsh, but that’s how you often come over, and I think you should know better.

    Or as we used to say in the 1970s, you seem to have a low level of political consciousness when it comes to Muslims.

    modernityblog

    November 12, 2009 at 3:17 pm

  21. I’m curoius why all this debate/obsession about Islam but little reference to any other religion. And i wonder why these was never perceived as an issue/problem until this century – funny that. there’s nothing implicitly progressive about secularism – Sam Harris is proof of that – and asserting it as sole preoccupation has other pitfalls. How are you going to win Moslem women over, for example, if you support the French banning them wearing items of clothing. Sporting the bullying of young women by the state – brilliant!

    Doug

    November 12, 2009 at 6:02 pm

  22. Peter, of course challenges, all homophobes irrespective of religion and credit to him for doing so.

    Don’t want to comment in detail here but yes fundamentalist intolerant secularism is as bad as any other form of intolerance

    Derek Wall

    November 12, 2009 at 8:40 pm

  23. Oddly I find myself in general agreement with modernity (there, I spelled it right). Sue R – sort it out.

    Lobby Ludd

    November 12, 2009 at 10:14 pm

  24. “the fully enlightened earth radiates disaster triumphant”

    Not that I want to mix my Marx with too much Weber and go all Frankfurt School, but Adorno and Horkheimer had a point when they wrote after the enlistment of science and reason by the Nazi holocaust:

    “The Enlightenment has always aimed at liberating men from fear and establishing their sovereignty. Yet the fully enlightened earth radiates disaster triumphant”.
    (Dialectic of Enlightenment).

    Of course, the enlightenment was always part of the capitalist revolution. It replaced the ideology of the church with a new scientific worldview. But it also was materially supported by the slave trade, and had to exclude large sections of humanity from its ‘universal rights of man’.

    The question of the relationship between enlightenment and socialism becomes therefore inseparable from that of : “Is capitalism progress over feudalism’?

    For Marx, capitalism was only progressive in that it laid the basis for socialism. It was one-sidedly progressive. Alienated labour means that every step towards progress under capital meant further enslavement by our own production. Capitalism certainly did not seem that progressive if you were an early 19th century worker, hence Luddism. And its not that progressive if you are an indigenous person in the Amazon today.

    Of course, we can relocate the enlightenment, reclaim it from the bourgeoisie, and declare that the only progressive class today is the global working class. But an enlightenment transplanted to a rising working class might be a very transformed and different thing. Reason might move from its purely instrumental mode ( with its cartesian subject /object dichotomies) to what? A more intersubjective and communicative reason? A different direction for science? Specualtive nonsense, maybe, as a postcapitalist episteme inevitably remains occluded to us.

    But back down to earth. Of course, Tatchell and Coatsey have a point about the declaration of Universal human rights. The working class movements globally can claim this as our own, and take it further than the bourgeoisie. But its all about seizing the historic achievements of the bourgeoisie, and taking them further. Lets agree that its about reaching for something better and beyond capitalist modernity, not falling for something worse.

    This is connected to the traditional socialist project of seizing control of the forces of production hitherto developed within capitalism. And these productive forces include scientific knowledge, as well as machinery, etc. But after that seizure, true socialism was never really about simply running the old machine as before. Rather it was about how we begin to transform it, away from the needs of capital and towards the needs of humanity and the planet, until it becomes something different altogether.

    When capitalist modernity was born, it was met with two main political currents – liberals and conservatives. You could either be its liberal cheerleader, or its reactionary critic. Then along came the working class and Marxism. Thus a third option came into being, of an alternative modernity – socialism.

    With the temporary eclipse of socialism and the working class in recent years it seems we were thrust backwards. Politics has been about capitals liberal cheerleaders or reactionary critics again. And amongst the reactionary anti-capitalists we can place both political Islamicists and deep green ecologists.

    Ecosocialism is the rebirth of Marx’s project for our times. It poses anew the question of an alternative modernity, of an ecological enlightenment. But this enlightenment is of a different class, and a different time from Voltaires. And it will provide a different standpoint from those whose socialism has degenerated into secular liberalism, as well as from reactionary fundamentalisms.

    barrykade

    November 12, 2009 at 11:38 pm

  25. Barry,

    Not being rude, but instead of trying to reduce whole chunks of history and everything down to a few paragraphs, which you as an academic must know is slightly questionable and possibly a hangover from SWP reductionism, where complex ideas are broken down into bite size slogans to be fed to the novices, perchance could you engage with the ramifications of the insinuations of “Islamophobia”?

    By that I mean, the whole set of discussions at SU blog descended into an appalling mess with baseless accusations made against Peter Tatchell (from incidentally many of your one-time comrades in the SWP, Ray, Keith Watermelon, etc).

    I have made this point elsewhere, unnecessarily using the claim of “Islamophobia” to attack people (eg. as Islamophobia Watch did with Dave Osler) does not actually improve people’s understanding of these complex issues, rather it pisses them off.

    When those accusations are thrown around it’s as good as calling someone a racist.

    Now could you tell me, do think you would be successful in your career if you went around accusing your colleagues, unjustifiably, of racism? I suspect not

    And if not, isn’t it bound to engender feelings of hostility and create a bad atmosphere? as witnessed at SU blog?

    If you’re following my argument so far, I would contend that the finger jabbing school of political accusation actually weakens the Left, and if we are serious about opposing Islamophobia at his most hostile, which is coming from neo-Nazis and BNPers then the Left should avoid these unnecessary fractious arguments?

    What do you say, Barry?

    Do you think that Dave Osler, as a long term antiracist and Marxist, feels good when people bracket him along with the BNP ? (As naturally the insinuation of Islamophobia does)

    It is not a smart tactic, is it?

    modernityblog

    November 13, 2009 at 12:15 am

  26. yes, modernity, you have a point…

    Islamophobia is not the best word… precisely because it can lump together progressive secularists along with the reactionary western chauvinists. But we should not ignore the threat posed by these western chauvinists, who are wannabe pogromists and ethnic cleansers of the muslim minorities from Europe and America.

    I also think these progressive secularists need to rethink their politics now Islam is being demonised and essentialised by imperialism. They need learn something about social context and location, and stop being dazzled by abstract universalism.

    Also, while we should debate vigorously, and clarify ideas, this should not be to fragment the left into purist sects. Rather, we need a plural left, which consists of alliances with left wingers who have different ideas.

    By the way, I have written something about the shortcomings of the term ‘Islamophobia’ in response to Dave Oslers piece here:

    http://barrykade.wordpress.com/2009/11/11/caught-in-blogoversy-1-osler-racism-and-islamophobia/

    And you can find much more(!) – about enlightenment secularism and Marxism, etc etc here:

    http://barrykade.wordpress.com

    barrykade

    November 13, 2009 at 1:29 am

  27. Barry,

    Again not wishing to be rude, it would be far better, in my view, if we concentrated on concrete examples such as that attacks on Dave Osler, etc and discussed the advisability of these actions, what it tells us about the nature of the debate, before getting carried away somewhat with abstracts on “imperialism”, etc.

    The reason I say this, is because even embedded within your few paragraphs are many assumptions and I would argue, on another occasion, that possibly some of these are dubious and certainly ambiguous.

    I completely agree that we do need a pluralistic left, however, there is a whole chunk of it ( you will remember your old comrades in the SWP , etc) who like nothing better than to impose their views on others, will use any bureaucratic manoeuvring to do that and aren’t particularly pluralistic.

    I had briefly scanned your piece on Osler, before, etc but in my view it tended towards the abstract and didn’t see how Dave Osler was rightly annoyed at the insinuation of Islamophobia.

    Not sure if my points are too clear, part of it comes down to this, once people start alienating and attacking people like David Osler and Peter Tatchell then you’ve just managed to alienate about 90% of potential allies.

    The remark was made before that, if Peter Tatchell is some Lefties’ enemy, then they mustn’t have many friends. That strikes me as a good summary of the British Left to date.

    I cannot stress sufficiently how the assumptions of bad faith, cheap attacks on secularism, etc do not help matters or make a halfway sensible debate probable.

    In all of that I think it’s best to talk about cases and not abstracts, how attacking the likes of Dave Osler, do more harm than good?

    modernityblog

    November 13, 2009 at 11:29 am

  28. “I have nothing but admiration and respect for Tatchell’s stout and very brave defence of human rights. I also have no doubt in my mind that if the human rights of the Muslim community were being attacked he would be among the first at the barricades. So this notion that he’s some kind of ‘Islamophobe’ is total and utter bollocks. Period.”

    Exactly, as you suggest he’d be first up there, whereas his critics on SU blog would probably wait for their political masters to tell them what to do!

    Many of Peter’s critics are just out for political or personal malice, to settle scores etc

    He’s made enemies over the years by ruffling the feathers of many a (conservative) “anti-imperialist”, so they are taking the opportunity to put the boot in, as I see it.

    modernityblog

    November 14, 2009 at 1:36 pm

  29. http://another-green-world.blogspot.com/2009/11/respect-conference-in-birmingham-today.html

    George Galloway has urged Respect members to vote for Peter Tatchell at the General Election.

    Derek Wall

    November 15, 2009 at 12:09 am


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