Tendance Coatesy

Left Socialist Blog

Covid Conspiracists: The ‘White Rose’.

with 44 comments

The White Rose Logo

“A virus that is less dangerous than the flu, is being used as an excuse to turn the world into a new kind of global communism.”

 

Pursuing our exploration into confusionist right ‘left’, and extreme right, this is the latest:

The creator of the rapidly growing ‘Sabmyk Network’ is said to be a Berlin art dealer with a record of media manipulation.

 

They face competition from this rival cult (Hat-To Trev).

Mask mandatory? Social distancing? Lockdown after lockdown? Loneliness and depression? Forced vaccination? Ruined businesses and livelihoods? Silent genocide through depopulation? We say NO! We have recognised that the covid restrictions are destructive and deeply dehumanising. A virus that is less dangerous than the flu, is being used as an excuse to turn the world into a new kind of global communism. For the sake of our children, and their children, we peacefully resist this evil evolvement. We say NO! to new normal because it is entirely abnormal and inhumane.

This is deeply distasteful:

Origin of The White Rose

In the midst of World War II a German underground movement called Die Weisse Rose (The White Rose) distributed leaflets calling on people to passively resist the Nazi regime.

One of their leaflets stated that every single human is entitled to a practical government that guarantees the freedom of every single person and the wellbeing of the community. Every human should be able to reach their natural goal, their earthly joy, autonomously and by their own accord. The White Rose spoke to people’s conscience and urged them to wake up from their dangerous lethargy.

Even though, we are not suffering the lack of food or the danger of bombs dropping on our homes, there are remarkable parallels in The White Rose’s appeal to the current coronavirus crisis. All around the world we have been brainwashed into panic over a virus from which the vast majority of people don’t get ill of, yet alone die of. Listen to the experts—doctors, professors, virologists and epidemiologists—who explain why lockdowns are pointless. We have always lived with viruses, and we will need to live with this one too.
Covid-19 is not more dangerous than the seasonal flu. The disproportionate and dehumanising restrictions are a disgrace to humanity. People protesting against lockdowns are being arrested and treated like criminals for gathering and exercising their right of free speech.

 

 

Claire Edwards

“COVID-19” was long pre-planned in documents and simulation exercises emanating from the eugenicist Bill Gates and the Rockefeller Foundation. A platform with 200 detailed levels is provided by the World Economic Forum led by Klaus Schwab, a technocrat and promoter of transhumanism, in order to provide

detailed instructions on how the “COVID-19” pandemic is to be used to implement a global monetary reset1 and digital currency, technocracy and totalitarian government worldwide under the guise of socialism and environmentalism, with China as the model, and enslave humanity through a sinister vaccine conspiracy.”

She is an old Trooper,

The video shows a woman named Claire Edwards sharing numerous conspiracies about the pandemic. The caption says that Edwards worked for the United Nations between 1999 and 2017.

A U.N. spokesperson told Reuters that Edwards did work for them as a Conference Services Officer between 29 May 1999 and 28 March 2017, but confirmed she is “no longer professionally affiliated with the United Nations.”

This article will only address the primary claims in the video.

“The COVID-19 pandemic was planned by Bill Gates”

The video says: “COVID-19 was long pre-planned in documents and simulation exercises emanating from the eugenicist Bill Gates and the Rockefeller Foundation.”

There is no evidence that the coronavirus pandemic was deliberately planned or that Bill Gates has any links with such a plan.

This conspiracy theory, along with other misinformation that references Gates, has already been debunked by Reuters here.

“5G spreads COVID-19”

The video says: “Wireless technology suppresses the immune system. 5G is implicated in COVID-19 through correlations between the locations of the 5G rollout and morbidity and mortality.”

There is no connection between the coronavirus outbreak and possible 5G health effects.

Reuters has already disproved allegations relating to 5G here and here.

“There is no pandemic”

The video says: “There is and was no pandemic…Mortality is at a lower level than in previous years.”

This is false. Reuters has debunked claims relating to annual death rates herehere and here.

As of Nov. 3, figures from the World Health Organisation (WHO) show 1,201,000 people have died globally due to COVID-19: covid19.who.int/.

Dr Vernon Coleman is a leading figure, he is also pretty well known.

Vernon Coleman (born 18 May 1946) is an English conspiracy theoristanti-vaccination activist, AIDS denialist, blogger and novelist who writes on topics related to human health, politics and animal issues. Coleman’s medical claims have been widely discredited and described as pseudoscientific. He was formerly a newspaper columnist and general practitioner

One sign of their appearance in public:

They seem to have a network,…

11 071 members
Please post photos of your sticker sightings in the chat room (t.me/thewhiterosechat), so the admins can put them up on the main channel!

 

Forwarded from The White Rose

Posters purporting to be from lockdown sceptic group The White Rose appeared in parts of Middleton over the weekend

Many people will feel that their use of the name the White Rose is obscence.

The White Rose (GermanWeiße Rosepronounced [ˈvaɪ̯sə ˈʁoːzə] (About this soundlisten)) was a non-violent, intellectual resistance group in Nazi Germany led by a group of students from the University of Munich, including Sophie SchollHans Scholl and Alexander Schmorell. The group conducted an anonymous leaflet and graffiti campaign that called for active opposition to the Nazi regime. Their activities started in Munich on 27 June 1942, and ended with the arrest of the core group by the Gestapo on 18 February 1943.[1] They, as well as other members and supporters of the group who carried on distributing the pamphlets, faced show trials by the Nazi People’s Court (Volksgerichtshof), and many of them were sentenced to death or imprisonment.

Written by Andrew Coates

March 21, 2021 at 12:06 pm

44 Responses

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  1. I am also concerned that they might be confusing themselves (deliberately? or not) with a genuine esoteric Christian church called the White Eagle Lodge who also use the symbol of a white rose, in the same way that the Rosicrucians use a red rose, but are nothing to do with this sinister Covid-denial movement;
    “The white rose – symbol of purity, pure love – is the symbol of John, the one who is working most closely with Jesus; a symbol of a part or an aspect of the dual soul of Jesus. The symbol of the white rose inspires pure love, divine love, within you. The white rose and the red rose are two symbols of life, the white rose being pure spirit; and the red rose being the spirit or human soul after it has passed through deep human experiences.”
    (From ‘The Light Bringer: The Ray of John and the Age of Intuition’ – The White Eagle Publishing Trust.)

    In this case the anti-Lockdown movement are appropriating and misusing/misrepresenting a genuine esoteric sacred symbol, in the same way that Hitler perverted the swastika.

    trev

    March 21, 2021 at 12:36 pm

    • ‘Fraid not – their website deliberately conflates themselves with the German White Rose movement of WW2

      david walsh

      March 21, 2021 at 12:55 pm

      • Yes it does David but their website also contains a Prayer page and quotes St.John too, clearly an attempt to present themselves as pseudo-Religious.

        trev

        March 21, 2021 at 1:14 pm

  2. Somebody in the national media needs to go gunning for the White Rose people in the name of common decency. Trouble is, they’d probably wallow in the attention this gives them.

    david walsh

    March 21, 2021 at 12:53 pm

  3. Andrew Coates

    March 21, 2021 at 1:44 pm

  4. But, again the biggest helpers of these conspiracy nuts are those on the Left that claimed that COVID was an existential threat to society, when it clearly is not.

    It is an existential threat to a small section of society – approximately 20% – that being the elderly, and to a lesser extent those with immune compromising conditions. That is shown by the fact that more than 90% of deaths and serious illness is amongst those over 60, with the majority of that being those over 80. The average age of death is 82, which is older than the average life expectancy in Britain. The normal range of deaths in Britain per year is 400,000 – 625,000 in recent times. Even if we took all of the reported 125,000 deaths as being COVID deaths – which they aren’t because they are deaths of people who died WITH COVID rather than FROM COVID, it would be well within this normal annual range of mortality. Taken over several years it will appear as nothing more than an insignificant blip. In coming years, with or without vaccines the number of deaths will fall from the current level because of the development of natural herd immunity.

    By comparison, the 80,000 people who die in Britain each year from smoking related illnesses is not going to decline in coming years, short of a breakthrough in that sphere. Smoking, which also adds 320,000 people a year to the list of people with serious illnesses is a far more serious, and imminent threat to society.

    The largest single source of COVID infections is the NHS itself. It has been responsible for infecting more than 25% of the people it ends up treating for COVID. That is due to the fact that given that it is supposed to be such an existential threat, the NHS has done nothing to protect that 20% of people actually at risk from it. It spent tens of millions on Nightingale hospitals that remained almost entirely empty, whilst did not even bother to set up isolation hospitals or even hospital wings for COVID patients. Instead it put them in beds in wards with other patients! As with MRSA and C-Dif during previous scandals, the spread of infection appears to be more down to the lack of basic common sense practices than even the effects of ten years of austerity. That austerity can be blamed for lack of PPE, but what PPE existed does not seem to have been used effectively to prevent the spread of infection. Then the NHS brought back elderly retired staff, i.e. the very category of the population actually at risk from the virus!

    The other main area of infection and mortality is the care home sector where the elderly are again concentrated. But, a large part of the spread there came from the fact that the NHS knowingly sent infected elderly people back to them!!! Again a complete failure to undertake basic sensible methods to prevent infection were missing. The same can be said about social and healthcare for the elderly in their own homes.

    Yet, the Left has said nothing about this actual real existential threat and source of infection and death. Why? because it has a fetish for the state capitalist NHS, and for the state itself. had private providers being responsible for this level of neglect the Left would have been in uproar, but then given that the answer to any failings by private providers offered by the Left is to call for the capitalist state to take over the operation, its no surprise that the Left does not want to face up to the fact that the biggest threat, the biggest single superspreader of the virus is not young people going out to enjoy themselves, but is the NHS itself!

    By purveying the nonsense that COVID is some kind of existential threat to society, rather than what it is, which is a virus that for society as a whole is no more threatening than the flu – and for 80% of the population much less threatening than the flu, as even the Imperial College data demonstrates – the Left has failed to highlight where the real threat resides. It has hidden from view the fact that the real threat is to the elderly and the elderly have been treated shoddily by the NHS and the rest of the state. That 20% of the population could have been protected against the virus, leaving the rest of society to go about its business as normal. Instead, by focusing on a shadow, the mythical requirement to lock down the rest of society, the Left has distracted attention away from the fact that the people who actually were at risk, the elderly, have been lined up in NHS hospitals and care homes like cannon fodder, and thereby have become the death statistics that are then paraded as though they represent a cross section of society.

    If you insist on continuing to spread an obvious falsehood – which a simple examination of the ONS data exposes – that COVID is an existential threat to the whole of society rather than only to a small defined section of it, then its no wonder you are going to create a reaction, and enable those who are so minded to present your conveyance of those fallacies as being part of some wider conspiracy. You are providing them with the fuel for their fire. The attitude of the left in relation to the NHS is reminiscent of the attitude of Bernard Shaw to the reality of lie in the USSR in the 1930’s. It would do a great service by doing the analysis of all the death and spread of infection taking place in the NHS and care homes, rather than trying to claim that its young people living their lives that are to blame.

    Boffy

    March 21, 2021 at 5:09 pm

    • Covid no worse than the flu Boffy? I look forward to reading your expert thesis in the Lancet.

      trev

      March 21, 2021 at 5:31 pm

      • Andrew Coates

        March 21, 2021 at 5:41 pm

      • It is interesting that their messaging is carried out through Telegram: https://t.me/JoinTheWhiteRose/1357?single

        Why right-wing extremists’ favorite new platform is so dangerous
        Telegram’s lax content moderation and encrypted chats make it a convenient tool for extremists.

        https://www.vox.com/recode/22238755/telegram-messaging-social-media-extremists

        Andrew Coates

        March 21, 2021 at 5:56 pm

      • Trev,

        You don’t need an expert thesis from me, as the data is already out there, and I have covered it extensively on my blog. Look for example at the Imperial College data based on China, which gives a break down of mortality rates, i.e, deaths in relation to infections, by age range. In fact, it shows that for those under 40, the mortality rate for COVID is significantly lower than for flu. One obvious reason for that is that flu is deadly to people across the age spectrum, and in fact more deadly for children.

        All of the data shows that for 80% of the population COVID is asymptomatic or produces only cold like symptoms. That is certainly not the case with flu. In a bad year, flu kills around 15-20,000 people in Britain, and many of them are in these younger age groups, many of the elderly being vaccinated against it. A look at the ONS data here shows total COVID deaths for under 40’s at just about 4.500. Even including under 60’s comes to only 11-12,000. The same table also provides mortality rates against infections. But, the infections are measured as lab tested infections, whereas, the vast majority of infections amongst the under 60’s, are asymptomatic and so never show up in infection rates, because the people are never ill and never tested!

        This ONS Data is also instructive showing that if you take COVID19 deaths as only cause of death, i.e. where no other previous illness is listed on the death certificate, the number of deaths in England and Wales is just 4476 in total – https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transparencyandgovernance/freedomofinformationfoi/covid19deathsbyageanddeathsfromcovid19only. This confirms what most GP’s know, which is that many of these deaths of elderly people are people who were dying anyway of other causes, and indeed of old age. In the past they died from “the old man’s friend”, the chest infection.

        Boffy

        March 21, 2021 at 6:52 pm

          • Over two & half Million worldwide have died of Covid and that’s WITH all the lockdowns and safety precautions. It would have been MILLIONS dead by now if we hadn’t taken measures such as lockdowns and border controls as well as safe social distancing, facemasks, etc.

            trev

            March 21, 2021 at 7:04 pm

            • Imperial said it was going to be 45 million. Every single year, half a million die from flu, in 1968, the number of global flu deaths on a population adjusted basis was the equivalent of 12 million, and for the Spanish Flu 150 million. Adjusted for population the current deaths from COVID in Britain are no worse than for the 1968 Hong Kong Flu.

              But, also I refer you to the ONS data linked to above. A headline figure of 125,000 people dying from COVID, which is actually a figure of people dying WITH Covid, as against an actual figure of just 4500 of people in England and Wales dying FROM Covid, i.e. where it is the only thing listed on the death certificate, and not other pre-existing conditions that were a cause of death. The headline COVID death figure is people who die from any cause – including being run over by a bus – just so long as their death occurs within 28 days of having a positive COVID test. That necessarily grossly inflates the mortality rate. Yet we know, and Patrick Vallance said a year ago, that the vast majority of people who have been infected with COVID are not listed in the figures for infections because they are asymptomatic and never tested.

              So, making reasonable adjustments for the number of deaths and for the actual number of infections – as against laboratory confirmed infections – its clear that even the overall mortality rate for COVID is certainly no worse than for flu, and probably lower, and certainly for those under 60, and particularly those under 40, the mortality rate for COVID is much, much lower than for flu. It only has a high mortality rate for those over 60 and particularly over 80, with also a higher mortality rate for those with immune compromising conditions. Yet, given that it is a threat to that section of society, no significant measures were undertaken to protect them, which is what scientists at Edinburgh University said should have happened. Instead the NHS has continued to infect elderly and sick people on a large scale, and care homes became killing fields for the elderly. While what was happening, the Left remained silent, and instead demanded young people be locked up, and their jobs be destroyed. No wonder the youth are in rebellion.

              Boffy

              March 22, 2021 at 11:35 am

            • In relation to global COVID deaths and so on, the fact again is that far more people in poorer countries have died as a result of the economic consequences of the unneccessary lockouts imposed than have died from COVID. According to OXFAM, an additional 500 million people thrown into poverty and malnutrition.

              Boffy

              March 22, 2021 at 11:40 am

              • Meanwhile, both the Oxfam shop and sorting depot in my town remain closed, whereas the independently run foodbank around the corner has remained open for business throughout.

                trev

                March 22, 2021 at 11:47 am

                • I think your flippant response tells us al, we need to know about you.

                  Boffy

                  March 22, 2021 at 1:00 pm

  5. Andrew Coates

    March 21, 2021 at 7:28 pm

  6. I’ve given the actual data on the actual cause of death, as opposed to COVID, in my blog post here. As can be seen, of the 50,000 COVID related deaths up to 30th November, just 4476 were actually due to COVID, as against people dying from other causes who also had COVID. The largest cause of death was Dementia and Alzheimer’s accounting for 12,869 of the deaths or about 25%. Next was Heart Disease, accounting for 5,000, or just over 10%. Flu and Pneumonia actually accounted for more deaths than did COVID itself, even amongst the 50,000 people listed as being COVID related deaths.

    So, on the one hand we have the number of deaths from COVID being inflated by a factor close to 10, whilst the number of actual infections is grossly under reported, because its based only on lab confirmed tests, whilst the vast majority of people infected – around 80% – are never tested, or recorded, because they are asymptomatic, itself an indication of the extent to which COVID is NOT an existential threat to society, but only to a small section of it, i.e. the elderly!

    So, yes, taking the two things together, its clear that COVID is less of an existential threat than is flu, which affects all age ranges indiscriminately, whereas COVID targets the elderly. Which again posits he question of why the state has not protected the elderly, but insisted on tilting at windmills and closing down society as a whole. COVID is a coronavirus like those that cause the common cold, so its not surprising that it has similar consequences.

    Boffy

    March 22, 2021 at 12:57 pm

    • You’re overlooking the longterm after-effects of Covid, or “long Covid”, which persists for who knows how long and can be very debilitating. Covid is a lot worse than the flu in every respect. It’s not just about the cold facts & figures of your statistics, which don’t tell the whole story, it’s about the human experience of Covid, the effects it has on sufferers and their families and all those who care for them, and the impact it has had on the NHS. Ask any NHS Doctor, Nurse, who have been working in intensive care over the last year. There is no comparison between ordinary flu and Coronavirus.

      trev

      March 22, 2021 at 2:28 pm

      • Given your previous flippant response when you can’t respond to facts I am reluctant to bother responding further. Again in your response here you run away from the actual facts into hearsay and speculation without any data to support your argument.

        So called “long COVID” is ill-defined. What is it? What range of conditions does it cover? Do we know its – at least in every case – physiological or psychosomatic? How many people does it affect? Some suggestions are of 10% of those that suffer serious symptoms and recover, for example. In that case its no different to the long-term health effects of other serious viruses including flu that are associated with ME and so on. Indeed, do we know that long-Covid is distinct from ME?

        I am sure that anyone working in the NHS treating people with COVID will attest to it having a more dramatic effect. That is not in dispute. But, the fact remains that its effects are almost exclusively restricted to the elderly, as that ONS data illustrates. I will be posting another blog tomorrow looking at that data in more detail, in relation to the age profile. For example, Table 2 of the ONS data illustrates why the actual cause of death of the largest number of people listed in the data for COVID related deaths was Alzheimer’s/Dementia it is the age of those dying. As an average, 18% of those dying were aged over 90! A further 19% were aged 85-89. A further 20% were aged 80-84, giving a total of 57% of deaths of people aged over 80.

        And, of course, all those NHS workers you speak of cannot give a comparison with flu, because the vast majority of people who contract COVID19, are asymptomatic and so are never seen by any of those NHS workers!!! If you distort the data so that the only comparison is with people who are actually ill, and remove from the picture all the people who are infected but completely unaffected of course you will get the distorted picture you present.

        If I only look at the people who win Euromillions prizes, as against those who win Premium Bond prizes, I will no doubt get the picture that there is no comparison between playing the lottery and putting money into Ernie. But, of course, there are many many more people who put much more money into the Lottery and win nothing, or very little as compared to the people putting money into Premium Bonds. The fact remains that your chance of winning a Jackpot on the Lottery is infinitesimally small compared to your chance of winning on the Premium Bonds.

        Boffy

        March 22, 2021 at 2:53 pm

        • Thanks for your response and opinions but when it comes down to a pandemic I prefer to put my faith in the official government advice based upon the informed professional opinions of Doctors, Professors, Medical Scientists and Virologists rather than some bloke on the internet who’s obsessed with statistics and percentages.

          trev

          March 22, 2021 at 3:09 pm

          • You mean obsessed with facts rather than speculation and hearsay. You speak of Doctors and so on as though they are some monolithic bloc, with no differences of opinion between them, which is far from the case. As for official government advice its not only continually been proved wrong, but has had to continually change because it was proved to be wrong!

            Why you would want to believe anything Bojo says is beyond me, or Matt Hancock. This is the same government and advisors that presided over wasting tens of millions of Nightingale Hospitals that remained empty, that failed to establish isolation hospitals, that presided over the NHS being the biggest superspreader of the virus, that knowingly sent infected elderly people back to Care Homes. And that is what you put your faith in???!!!

            Then of course, there are all those people involved in the multi-billion pound medical-industrial complex that have their own corporate and personal interests in preseting COVID as some existential threat that can only be dealt with by billions being channelled into research, and into the development of expensive drugs and so on. They of course have no axe to grind do they? Never mind the fact that the team at Imperial made the same dire warnings about Swine Flu in 2009 that were found to be completely baseless.

            But, if you have channelled so much of your credibility and money into the presentation of an existential threat to society, no wonder you will not broach any challenge to that narrative, and instead day after day pump out data on COVID deaths that overstates the real figure by up to ten times! No wonder you will swear black is white that COVID affects everyone, whereas the data is undeniable that it is a virus that almost exclusively affects the elderly.

            No wonder you have an allergy to statistics and percentages they are obviously to you what sunlight is to a vampire.

            Boffy

            March 22, 2021 at 5:16 pm

            • A national and international emergency such as a viral pandemic is not the time for amateur Statistical Analysis. Trust the experts and do what you’re told.

              trev

              March 22, 2021 at 5:34 pm

              • I do trust experts, but not all experts agree, and its only sensible to trust experts when they are able to back up their arguments with facts, unlike you who use “experts” as merely a cover for you to put out your own version of the truth, based on hearsay and speculation, and which you are unable to support either with logical argument or facts.

                “Do what you are told” is the true mantra of the authoritarian and fascist, which is what you appear to be. Given that I studied Statistics as part of my degree, I also don’t consider my analysis of them as “amateur”, and in any case other “experts” also arrive at the same conclusion. However, even an “amateur” statistician can look at statistics that clearly show that more than 90% of people who have died from “Covid related causes” are over 60, and see that the claim that it represents an existential threat for the whole of society, rather than just for this relatively small proportion of society is bunk.

                Your comments about face masks and so on, of course, above are illustrative. Last year, the same “experts” you tell us to trust were arguing against wearing face masks! If that advice alone had been ignored, and common sense applied, thousands of lives might have been saved.

                Boffy

                March 22, 2021 at 7:41 pm

                • No, I’m not a Fascist, I meant do as you’re told as in do what the government experts say, follow the official advice and rules, as so many people now seem to want to flout the rules which is not fair on the rest of us and may spread infection. All we can do is follow the official advice and stick to the rules, otherwise we’ll never get out of this situation.

                  trev

                  March 22, 2021 at 9:47 pm

                  • Given that its an exceedingly authoritarian government, and it chooses its experts, not all of whom agree, let alone all the other experts who disagree, why would any sensible person do what you suggest? All of your statements certainly read like those of an authoritarian or fascist, so forgive me for not being convinced.

                    The basis of liberty and democracy is to challenge what governments, and their experts say, especially where the facts provided by those experts and others do not fit the argument that the government is presenting. You talked about “amateur statisticians”, but the statistics provided have not been collated by me, but by those very government professional, expert statisticians you refer to. All I have done is to report the information those statisticians have analysed and collated!

                    I challenge anyone to deny that those statistics do not show that COVID is a disease that almost exclusively targets the elderly, and not as has been the basis of the proposals for all of the lockdowns and lockouts the whole of society more or less equally. The appropriate response was to have focused resources and attention on protecting that particular segment of society from infection, which is what the expert virologists at Edinburgh University, along with many other expert virologists said long ago. Instead the opposite has occurred. All of the attention has been on scapegoating the young for the spread of the virus, and the deaths from it, even though they are the least affected by it. They are, however, the most affected by the lockdowns and lockouts on their lives, their education and their jobs.

                    By contrast, no attention has been given to simply enabling those actually at risk to isolate from it. We have had to do it ourselves, where we have chosen to do that. Those that were in no position to ensure their own isolation, i.e. elderly people in hospitals or care homes are the people who have died in their thousands, because the NHS failed to protect them to a criminal extent. It failed to create isolation hospitals or wings, which in previous times would have been the first thing to happen. They put COVID patients in beds in wards with non-COVId patients, leading to the fact that 25% of the people that the NHS has treated for COVID are people that were infected AFTER they went into hospital! It knowingly sent elderly people back to care homes where they then spread the virus amongst a vulnerable population. This is why the mortality rate for COVID is high in the reported figures, not because it is more deadly than the flu. On the contrary, for 80% of the population not only is COVID less deadly than the flu, it is asymptomatic!!!

                    So given the catalogue of errors and failure to protect, the failure to even apply basic common sense, why would any sensible person put their lives at risk by simply doing what the government tells them to do, or for that matter its chosen experts? They are the same experts after all who got it so wrong with previous viruses like Swine Flu, and with this one told everyone originally last year, not to wear face masks!

                    Boffy

                    March 23, 2021 at 12:22 pm

                • I’ve been reading the exchange between you and trev and I must say thank you for completely debunking these brainwashed fools with facts. As usual with these types of people when presented with facts that debunk their “truth” they resort to personal insults to try and make themselves feel superior. Of course, let’s tarnish anyone that goes against their agenda as all far right Q-Anon nutters because someone on Twitter said so! Unfortunately there are some people that are so controlled by the state and it’s mainstream narrative that words will not reach them. I find those people incredibly dangerous, akin to the O’Brien character in 1984, 2+2=5, indeed.

                  Winston Smith

                  April 24, 2021 at 8:08 am

  7. Boffy, you keep using the phrase “existential threat to society.” Is that a quotation from someone you’re challenging? Is someone saying that because of Covid-19, society may cease to exist? Because if that’s the only valid reason to treat the disease broadly the way organized society is now treating it, then you can only be right. We could have many millions more deaths and “society” would continue to exist. Just as it continued to exist after the Spanish flu, when “society” tolerated a much higher death rate than it seems willing to accept today. Yet the non-existence of society is not the only danger that would justify a robust response.

    I find your objections thought-provoking, and will indeed think about them; your criticisms of the NHS may be accurate, I wouldn’t claim to know (I’m not even British); if accurate, they are certainly important.

    What does not make so much sense to me is the idea that big capital should be so invested in inflating the danger of Covid. Yes, there has been concentration of capital in this crisis, as in others, esp. in the US, where the beneficiaries of the stimulus have been buying up the smaller businesses most damaged by the pandemic, but on the whole the economic damage of this pandemic has been huge (as you yourself indicate), without any real sense that productive forces are being made more efficient as happens in the typical cyclical crisis. Because it is capital as a whole that rules, and not some specific businessmen who make vaccines or face-masks or whatever, how much sense does it really make to think that the perception of Covid as catastrophic is some kind of capitalist conspiracy? Is it really in the bourgeoisie’s best interests to hoodwink everyone into thinking that we need to shut down much of the global economy over a flu?

    The economic crisis we’re having is, as I see it, the strong point in your contrarian attitude: certainly the working class is not benefiting from having its work stopped and collective action prevented by restrictions on public gatherings, right? That’s why, like you, I think the best solution would be for working class people to have more control over their workday and anti-Covid measures, as they have every incentive to protect themselves both economically and in terms of health. Unfortunately working-class control of anything seems light-years away from reality right now, but I will look into what the AWL and others are saying (thanks for pointing it out).

    Finally, we have to keep in mind that any stats we have on how many people are dying or have been seriously damaged by Covid reflects the reality of the world as it actually is, with lockdowns and everything, not the world as it would be if we did not have all of these anti-Covid measures in place.

    Comrade Coates: though this is the first time I’ve commented here, I am an avid and regular reader. This blog is so often a strong gust of sanity. Keep up the good work!

    Will

    March 22, 2021 at 9:04 pm

    • I find Boffy’s arguments always worth thinking about as well, even if I certainly do not agree with him, and having family who work in the NHS I have a big degree of trust for what the NHS says on Covid.

      Andrew Coates

      March 23, 2021 at 10:23 am

      • With all due respect, why? The NHS’s performance has been appalling! It has infected thousands of people with the virus. It is the largest single spreader of the virus. It knowingly sent infected people back to care homes. It brought its own elderly staff back into the firing line, the very category of people actually at risk. It failed to provide proper PPP. It failed to establish proper isolation protocols. It failed to establish isolation hospitals or wings. It wasted tens of millions on Nightingale hospitals. It is a Stalinoid, failing, bureaucratic and hierarchical dinosaur!

        This is the sae organisation responsible for thousand of unnecessary deaths from MRSA a few years ago – no cases of MRSA were reported in private hospitals, and it would be interesting to see if they have had such a bad record for COVID infections too. It is the same organisation responsible for the Stafford Hospital scandal, for the more recently publicised Shrewsbury Hospital baby death scandals, for the organ harvesting scandals in Liverpool, and for the scandals of elderly people left lying in bed i their own faeces, unfed, and suffering dehyrdration.

        Why would any principled socialist make excuses for this terrible organisation other than out of some misplaced Fabian statist daydreams about its supposed socialist credentials, of which it has none? I have no doubt that most workers in the NHS do their best, but it is the organisation that is flawed. Its rather like the misguided view of G.B. Shaw who on his visit to Stalin’s Russia could only sing its praises, and saw nothing of the show trials, and murders, or the deaths of millions of peasants.

        And, as far as COVID is concerned, NHS workers have no means of being able to compare those they treat with the millions of people who have contracted COVID, but who have been asymptomatic. On the contrary, the fact that they only have a traumatic relation to the former, and no relation to the latter means that their subjective judgement is highly unreliable.

        Boffy

        March 23, 2021 at 1:54 pm

  8. Also, the distinction between people dying “with” Covid and people dying “of” Covid sounds specious to me. People with HIV quite often die “of” other illnesses, of which they would not be dying if they did not have HIV. I have read of numerous places where the rise in the overall death rate has been much more dramatic than the publicly available statistics concerning Covid deaths would suggest. It’s in the authorities’ interest, after all, to report as low as possible a number of people dying as a result of Covid, because that makes their response to the crisis look better.

    Will

    March 22, 2021 at 9:30 pm

    • Will,

      The idea that COVID represents an existential threat to society is implicit, and has even been explicit on many occasions in the narrative presented by the media, and by politicians. Existential threat does not necessarily mean society ceases to exist, but that it is under threat in general to an extent that it requires an overall drastic response. The original premise was based upon extrapolations provided by the team at Imperial College in London, who predicted that COVID could kill 45 million people globally, and up to half a million in Britain. However, they made pretty much the same predictions in 2009 in relation to Swine Flu, and their prediction of the mortality rate (deaths/infections) turned out to be out by a fact of about 100! Something similar appears to be the case with the prediction of the mortality rate for COVID, because it is continually based only upon laboratory confirmed infections, which account for only about a tenth of the actual number of infections, because about 90% of people who contract COVID are either asymptomatic, or else have only minor symptoms, so they never need treatment or get tested.

      Imperial based their calculations on date from China, but the Chinese even took out of the figure for infections those people known to have had COVID, but who had recovered from it. In other words, they only counted those people who were currently infected! One global Virology specialist Jon Ioannadis, at Stanford, has described it as being a “once in a century evidence fiasco”. But, if you have created the dynamic that has been created, and find yourself embroiled in a massive global moral panic, then it takes on a dynamic of its own, and you have to keep swearing black is white whatever the data and facts say, because who is going to own up to having created the worst global economic slow down in 300 years all for nothing?

      At the start of all this, we had daily news stories that deaths were going to be so great that we would have to resort to mass burials and cremations, we were even shown where the places for such were going to be. Did it happen, of course not! We were told we needed vast hospitals to take in all of the afflicted. Tens of millions was spent in Britain to build Nightingale hospitals to match the performance of the Chinese. In London, the Excel Centre was opened with much media fanfare offering 8,000 beds. It never treated more than 25 patients at any one time, and less than 60 in total! Most of the Nightingale hospitals closed without treating any patients whatsoever! Indeed, last year, throughout Britain, hospital occupancy rates fell to around 40%, which is shockingly low, with just one or two hospitals in specific areas being over capacity.

      Meanwhile, because the NHS did not do the obvious thing of creating isolation hospitals or wings for COVID patients, not only did it end up infecting large numbers of other people with COVID, but it also put off other seriously ill people from going into hospital, or they took that obvious decision for themselves. Latest estimates suggest that more people will die in the longer term, from cancer, and other serious complaints, as a result of not going into hospital for treatment than will have actually died from COVID.

      You are quite right in what you say about Spanish Flu, but the same applies to Hong Kong Flu in 1968, and Asian Flu in 1957. Both caused death on the same sort of scale as COVID, globally on a population adjusted basis. The difference is that Flu does affect the whole of society and not specifically the elderly. In terms of deaths, as I have said, smoking each year kills 80,000 people in Britain, which is more than the number who have died from COVID as against WITH Covid. Anyone who has been a union health and safety rep knows that in conducting a risk assessment, you assess the seriousness of the risk, and the probability of the risk. You then try to isolate the risk, where it presents a serious threat. In the case of COVID, as with other coronaviruses, it does not represent a serious risk to the majority of the population, as all the data shows, but it is highly probable to infect the majority of the population. Trying to prevent the latter is then not an effective response, as the scientists at Edinburgh and elsewhere have pointed out. What is required is to isolate those for whom it does represent a serious threat. That is what we do for people who have serious nut allergies, for example. We try to ensure that that particular segment of society is isolated from contact with nuts an nut products. We do not ban nuts and nut products; we do not tell the whole of society you cannot consume nuts, all nut production must be closed down!

      I also agree in relation to big capital. I have never said that big capital is involved in some kind of conspiracy to inflate the risk and so shut down the global economy. The point about the medical-industrial complex as with the military-industrial complex is that it represents the overlapping interests of a section of big capital with a section of the state bureaucracy, including that part involved in the Universities. In terms of the interests of big capital overall, it is antithetical, but that does not prevent powerful sections of the state bureaucracy, and of these specific corporations from feathering their own nests, any more than the fact that the activities of the executives at Enron or TYCO, whilst being antithetical to the interests of those corporations, and indeed to their shareholders, prevented them from feathering their own nests. That is always the case with large bureaucracies whether state, corporate or other, e.g. church, labour movement etc.

      Indeed, as I have written extensively, the interests of big capital is itself antithetical to the interests of the owners of shares, and vice versa. In particular, the short-term interests of share and bondholders to keep the prices of financial assets high, has driven them to use profits to buy up finanical assets rather than accumulate additional capital, and has led states to impose austerity so as to slow economic growth in order to reduce pressure on wages and interest rates so as to keep asset prices high, not to mention completely mutilating the global monetary system, via QE for the same purpose, which also acted to drain money from the general economy leading to slower growth. The interests of big capital are indeed not served by economic slowdowns, but the interests of big capital itself are not the same as the interests of the owners of shares an bonds and other fictitious capital, or thereby of the state that acts in their interest.

      You mention about what would have happened if lock downs were not imposed. Well, in fact we know. Sweden did not impose lockdowns, and yet has had a lower per capita mortality rate than Britain and other places that did. Take out the fact that it like other places failed to protect the elderly in hospitals and care homes at the start of the pandemic, and its performance would have been even better! In the Summer, it reduced new COVID related deaths to near zero, without lockouts – https://www.statista.com/statistics/1105753/cumulative-coronavirus-deaths-in-sweden/

      On workers control, now is actually a time when workers could exercise some leverage. The reality, for all the media hype is that the vast majority of workers have continued to work. As I’ve pointed out, if they didn’t the power would have been cut off, water supplies would have ceased, transport would have stopped, shops would have emptied, and so on, within days, or in the case of power hours. So, the state has hypocritically talked about lock down whilst requiring workers to work, as has capital. In that case, workers could have insisted that to come into work, they first required committees of workers inspection. Health and Safety reps are an obvious basis. But, we should be making precisely this point about the difference between the interests of capital, as against the interests of shareholders/bondholders, and how the latter is undermining even capitalist society and production. We can point to worker cooperatives as the model, but also as I have set out, corporations are also the collective property (legally) of their workers, not of shareholders (who are merely creditors), and so a basic democratic demand should be to amend company law to reflect that, by preventing shareholders from having any say in the election of company boards and so on. After all bondholders and other creditors have no such control.

      In terms of a class struggle response that makes far more sense than simply calling for the whole of society to be closed down, and for workers to just shut up, stay in doors and do as they are told!!!!

      In response to your comment about deaths with as against from, the comparison with HIV is apt. As the data shows, which I have presented on my blog, you have the same kind of thing. The headline data shows deaths where people died from all causes, within 28 days of having a positive COVID test. That includes say someone run over by a bus. What the ONS data I have provided from last November shows is that the number dying “due to” COVID is just 10% of that figure. The primary cause of death, i.e. the thing that all these people were actually dying from, and which they already were dying from, was one of the other things listed. In other words, Alzheimers/Dementia here occupies the same position as HIV in your example. It was the primary cause of death in 25% of the deaths actually listed as COVID related. The deaths from heart disease, strokes and so on played the same role but to a lesser extent.

      I don’t agree that its in the interests of the authorities to minimise the number of deaths reported, because they are locked into a narrative of existential crisis that they cannot easily escape, a bit like the position they are in with QE.

      Boffy

      March 23, 2021 at 1:36 pm

      • Incidentally, if you want to see, how far the interests of fictitious capital (shares, bonds etc.) diverges from the interests of big capital look at what has happened to profits over the last year, and look at what happened to stock and bond markets. Profits in general tanked – other than for online companies that boomed – but, after the initial sell off in March/April, they have soared to all-time highs, as the global slowdown meant that the demand for labour and capital was reduced. Downward pressure was put on wages, and the reduction in demand for capital put downward pressure on interest rates. Lower interest rates are the basis of higher asset prices. On top of that, central banks used the global slowdown as another excuse for even more QE, which again fed into the purchase of financial assets, raising their prices, and again inflating the paper wealth of the top 0.01%, as the global economy burned.

        Now, as the development of herd immunity assisted by the roll-out of vaccines means that the grounds for lockouts and lockdowns have disappeared, and the global economy starts to revive, with lots of demand waiting to be unleashed, all of the debt piled up in the previous period, together with the surge in demand for capital that will arise from the increased aggregate demand, and lack of profits on balance sheets to finance it, means that interest rates are set to surge. Indeed, in the last few weeks, the Yield on the US Ten Year Treasury has risen four fold compared to August, and on the UK 10 Year Gilt by 9 fold. Global Bond Markets have entered a Bear Market, and as bond markets sell off and interest rates rise, that will feed into stock markets too.

        As is often said in financial journalism good economic news is bad news for financial markets, and vice versa.

        Boffy

        March 24, 2021 at 10:03 am

        • Correction: First Para should say “after the initial sell off in March/April, stock and bond markets have soared to all-time highs, as the global slowdown meant that the demand for labour and capital was reduced.”

          Boffy

          March 24, 2021 at 10:05 am

  9. (I made a much longer comment before that one, and at first it was stuck in moderation, but now seems to have disappeared.)

    Will

    March 22, 2021 at 9:32 pm

    • I get some serious fash trolling from the Nipsters and Red Browners so I have a filter. I hope your comment is the one I have approved.

      “Nipster is a slang term used in Germany to refer to young neo-Nazis who have embraced aspects of hipster culture. Historically, German neo-Nazis promoted an ultra-masculine and extreme right-wing image, preferring short hair, violent imagery and combat gear—in keeping with the white power skinhead or casual subcultures—while rejecting most modern pop culture. This has changed, with young “nipsters” embracing causes such as animal rights and environmentalism alongside historically far right positions, including anti-immigration views. Nipsters, rather than rejecting modern pop culture, seek instead to appropriate it to promote neo-Nazi ideals.[1] This has also been seen in the New Right and National Anarchism movements.”

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nipster

      Andrew Coates

      March 23, 2021 at 1:31 pm

      • Sorry, my brief comment complaining about another comment having disappeared referred to the longest of my comments, which indeed appeared later. I have not posted anything about Nipsters. So now there is nothing missing. Thanks for asking.

        Will

        March 23, 2021 at 7:15 pm

        • We have been seriously attacked by the far right hell know why…

          Andrew Coates

          March 23, 2021 at 7:28 pm

  10. Historically Nazis have always been into animal welfare and environmentalism. Part of their peasant ideology I suppose

    Sue r

    March 23, 2021 at 11:08 pm

    • Hm. Wasn’t Henry Williamson, the now sainted author of “Tarka the Otter” one of our leading pre WW2 Nazi sympathisers ? Then there was the rural “Nordic” Rolf Gardiner……I could go on.

      David Walsh

      March 24, 2021 at 12:51 am

  11. Sham 69

    steppy143

    March 26, 2021 at 7:51 am


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